Oh the hypocrisy

[mahnmut]

It's ironic, human rights is oh so good, unless someone whose opinion we don't like happens to pronounce it. Oh the hypocrisy.

Mind you, this hypocrisy is not reserved to US only (oh, am I saying this??)  :-)

I recently tried to put a link in one of my comments, leading to a white supremacist blog which constantly spews hatred. But to my amazement, I found out it has been deleted!

http://southafricasucks.blogspot.com/

Even if it's regarded as a site spreading hateful and ignorant statements, it has the right to exist, if we're to talk about real human rights / freedom of expression!

(Btw, the site may be themed around South Africa, but the provider is based in the US. Go figure).


On the other hand...

Our Constitution says it clearly:

• Chapter 2: Bill of Rights
  

16. Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes ­
1. freedom of the press and other media;
2. freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;
3. freedom of artistic creativity; and
4. academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.
   
2. The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­
1. propaganda for war;
2. incitement of imminent violence; or
3. advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

Comments

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

You actually disproved yourself in the 2nd part (where you quoted the constitution). Freedom of expression is good, but to some extent - until the point where it ignites hatred and open, violent conflict. I think anyone should re-read their constitutions before they start spreading hateful messages aiming to recruit more haters for their suspicious causes.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Did you refer to the cartoon makers?

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Why only them.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Oh I see.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

The freedom of speech is a great gift but it is also a great responsibility to use it wisely.

sorry if this is unclear. i'm waking up without coffee as usual

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Yes, we do have to allow all forms of expression if we are to be fair. It is only another way that leaders can strip away our freedoms, if they start convincing us that certain forms of expression are not right. Furthermore, it's dangerous when everyone is so polarized as they are in this country right now. Keeps everyone looking in the wrong direction and keeps us easy to control.
You do forgive some people for being born in the United States, I hope. ( ;

Re: sorry if this is unclear. i'm waking up without coffee as usual

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Only some ;)

# The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­

1. propaganda for war;
2. incitement of imminent violence; or
3. advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

I think this is pretty important, although I think the first point is very interesting...

Re: sorry if this is unclear. i'm waking up without coffee as usual

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I felt sure that what he was saying was that this law was not fair. I did read the whole post carefully. And I agreed with what I thought he was saying. There is sometimes a slight language barrier so I may have misunderstood.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I was only implying that removing this website from the net is equally unfair as the things which were being propagandized inside it.

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Ok. Gotcha.
I don't myself agree with the things propagandized in it but I don't see how one can call for all press to be free but then exclude something like this.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

You can't know whether you agree with the things propagandized in it or not, because the site has been deleted and you cannot read its contents :-))

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

People are polarized in many places. I don't understand why some people like tvuutietyle24 label me as a US-hater.

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see. I didn't mean to assume anything. It wouldn't make sense for you to be one when you added me in the first place.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

LOL, opposing a country's policies or global stances does not mean that I hate the people who live in that country! Let's not mix things up.

You see, abomvubuso had a theory that I feel so hostile to many Western policies and values because of my past, or rather my country's past. It is a little-discussed aspect of Apartheid that the old regime was actually supported by a number of Western governments, US and Britain most of all. They were rather reluctant to embrace the international pressure for abolishing Apartheid. Go figure.

Still, some say I'm "humanist" enough to acknowledge that the people living in the West are just... well, people. In fact we are all the same, we are just people.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Well isnt my theory right?

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Is this your theory:

Freedom of expression is good, but to some extent - until the point where it ignites hatred and open, violent conflict.

If so, then I think you're mostly right. I think there's valid arguments for allowing the incitement of hatred (it's better to have those opinions out in the open is one; that it's easy to misconstrue criticism for hatred, as we're seeing in this thread). Personally, I don't like incitement to hatred, but then some would say I'm a dirty fucking hippy.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

LOL we're all hippies to some extent... until we get a job, that is :-))

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

pfft. Jobs are for the bourgeoisie :P

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Yes, they have to feed us while we're hugging trees! ^__^

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

LOL!

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Quite close.

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

I think you're misunderstanding. I had thought you were implying in your post that you disliked Americans. Once you said you didn't, it was cleared up for me. I don't like jumping to conclusions about people.
I consider myself to be hostile toward a lot of this country's politics and I'm a navy wife, so it's hard for me to point fingers at anyone.
Agreed. We are all people worthy of respect and kindness, as much as it is reasonable to extend at any one time.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

mahnmut is possibly like me; we'll disproportionately pick out the follies, foibles and failures of the USA, but that's because this forum is heavily populated by Americans. I like getting people to question their beliefs and assumptions. It's not hatred, it's just trying to make things relevant.

[myriad-mirrors.livejournal.com]

I really didn't assume nearly as much as it sounded like I did. It's all cool.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Which forum? You're my guest now :-P
Ah just kidding.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Oh right! I totally thought this was politicsforum :P Not used to having you on my flist :P

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Actually there's no difference. I speak only about politics here too :-)

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I don't like jumping to conclusions about people

+1!

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I do, you've just gotta be ready to accept it when you look like an ass :P

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Like this?

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

LOL, opposing a country's policies or global stances does not mean that I hate the people who live in that country! Let's not mix things up.

THANK YOU!

Hey, USA, we're your friends, that's why we feel it so important to criticise you (for the record, I'm exceptionally critical of my own government).

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Yep. A good constructive criticism from a friend works well (at least theoretically).

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Hey, are you tryna break my comments record!?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Not possible, with your rate of posting comments.