Well done pastor, that was so patriotic of you

[mahnmut]

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Freedom of hatred speech is SO patriotic! What does the life of several dozen of YOUR people who'll die in the process matter?

Comments

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

Well if you think "countless" lives are not at stake, and indeed are not being lost right now, then it says something about the value you place on human life.

And you are being entirely disingenuous in your "hey i am being offensive but i am not killing" line. Words have the power to kill, as you should know from the large number of peer-pressure induced suicides in your own society.

And who are you to tell me what is the prescription for my country, that too in such offensive terms? If you could engage your thought process just a little bit, you would realize that the people in the movie you cited already had a degree of goodwill between them and were willing to listen to each other. Goodwill that you do not want to build as per your statement in your comment in your Livejournal post because you consider yourself morally superior. And as for my comment, I did not say America should sacrifice free speech as such, but know that the consequences of exercise of free speech by individual Americans are felt across the globe, outside America, where people are not Americans, and therefore put the lives of other Americans in danger. In the light of this, it would be a wise choice to be responsible with the exercise of free speech, especially if America doesn't want to be a country where laws detail what the proper mode of expression should be. However, since you don't care much one way or the other about the deaths of people unrelated to you, I don't think there's much point discussing the minutiae of freedom of expression with you.

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

It says something about my ability to count.
No, it says something about the value you place on human life, whether the lives are American, Afghan, Pakistani, or Indian. You can't run away from that.

I don't get that comparison. Encouraging someone to kill themselves does not fall under freedom of speech.
Nice try again. I gave that example to illustrate the power of words, which you were disputing. Interesting to see that you are selectively willing to admit limits on freedom of speech, Mr. Inconsistent.

If you want to know, they actually had just met.
It doesn't matter. They were sharing the same cab, already had some sort of temporary relationship and trust between them, and came from the same background and took each others' words in good faith.

By the definition of morality one thing can, in fact, be more moral than another. And yes, I do happen to think that killing because someone burned your favorite book is morally inferior. *shrug*
That is not the code we are talking about. We were talking about having uninhibited freedom of speech - something you yourself are inconsistent about as demonstrated above.

Actually you did say that. Allow me to demonstrate...
Wow, very clever! Why did you not quote the entire sentence, including the allusion to warfare which you never responded to. Not to mention the entire explanation I gave above to which you you failed to respond to except meaninglessly exclaiming "We know this. We all know this" after separating it from what it was explaining.

I'll excuse this from further comment except to say
Oh no, you don't have to excuse anything. In fact I have demonstrated that you will always exercise your right to say whatever you feel like even if it puts the lives of your countrymen at risk. I don't think there's much of a response you can give, except saying that you joined the Army for your country and that makes you a certified patriot.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Well, technically he's not in the army any more, which now makes him a hired patriot. Technically.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

So they're not there out of patriotism, then?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

It's patriotism v 2.0 (updated) now?

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

Even in my own LJ post on the subject I said from the beginning that there are limits to freedom of speech

As a matter of fact you have done no such thing.

I'm thoroughly confused

You would not be if you had read my very first comment on your post carefully instead of going on arguing against things that I had not said and ignoring the ones I did, eventually leading to your accusing me of being a coward for not defending freedom of speech, and further trying to use my religion in order to rile me, and on being called on it making flippant remarks like "It would be like me making a Mexican joke. I'm a beaner, see? I don't care, lol" instead of showing the least bit of regret.

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

Except for "Fuck civility," the sentence you quote is the last one in your post, contrary to your claim that you "said from the beginning that there are limits to freedom of speech." Instead your opening paragraph is: "So a pastor burned a Qur'an a few days ago in Florida I guess. Muslims have been going nuts over this across the globe. I've seen quite a bit in the news about free speech, it's limitations, and the role of responsible free speech. What's weird is how much blame people are heaping on the pastor. Is freedom of expression a right, or isn't it?"

Oh yes, to repeat what I said in your blog: So you knew I was a Hindu (hell it says that on my profile and you must have added me on LJ after seeing that), and you knew perfectly well it had the potential to be taken as offensive, still you inserted a completely irrelevant mocking reference to Hinduism while arguing with me in a thread that had nothing to do with Hinduism because if I felt offended it will have to be my fault, right?

It is me who is being humorless, instead of you trying to make a personal jab when you had no response to give!

I wonder how sportive you'd be with someone who walked up to your wife or girlfriend and started saying offensive things. I may not mind what you said, but your attitude is the reason why you are so surprised that people outside your country, who consider religion paramount, take offense at the Quran burning. And if you say it's not the same thing, please try to understand that when you attack someone's religion, you're not attacking some invisible man in the sky, you are attacking that person's very being. For that reason, many times such a person feels even more justified to engage in violence than you do to protect your ideal of liberty (at least that's what you claimed earlier, later you said you were only willing to put others' lives in danger as long as yours is safe - link (http://panookah.livejournal.com/85951.html?thread=912063#t912063))

Yes I know it was the religion you were brought up in. And you might also want to think about the number of times I brought up the subject or tried to "correct" you.

You said I was too fearful to defend what I think is right, didn't you?

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

Whether it is sophistry or pointing out the repeated glaring inconsistencies in your statements would be clear to anyone who reads the two threads. That particular line which you quoted is no exception.

It is clear from my sentence that I didn't explain the violent reaction in terms of the "eight arms" remark but of Quran burning. It is obvious who is employing sophistry. In fact it has been your tactic throughout. Unfortunately for you, the comments are there for anyone to go through.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Danish guy =/= Dutch guy. LOL.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

"It doesn't just come from American, bud. It comes from many corners of the Western world. We know this."

Wait, so you do acknowledge that there is a problem with that?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

You do acknowledge that indiscriminate use of free speech disregarding the consequences is a problem (which is not just an American problem, but everyone's)?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I think I've just learned a few new English words now. :-)

I can see you guys have some history behind yourselves. This is fascinating, but even more fascinating is the way you've (sortof) preserved civility. I should learn a thing or two from you.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Well, here at least. I didn't dare to read the continuation of your exchange on your thread. Don't wanna experience a head assplosion.

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

It's a strange predicament when talking to Panookah. He delights in following his "Fuck civility" maxim himself, presenting it as some sort of honesty or candour, but when the other person demonstrates the flaw in his reasoning and indeed shows that he is being deliberately provocative to escape being cornered, he says: "Oh I see you are feeling offended, tsk tsk, everything you say is null and void"

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Well, the "I'm not gonna go on on this topic any longer" sort of strategy is the most frequently used one, in my observation.

[pmax3.livejournal.com]

I'll remember that lesson in future, only in this case I wanted to explore every last possibility of having a sincere conversation with him, given that he had added me himself after our last argument on TP. I also had loads of free time and not being on the forum seemed better suited to having a good-faith conversation. On the flip side your inbox got flooded, which I am sorry about :P

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Don't mind my inbox, when I post something on the forum it gets more flooded. And panookah likes to add people because he likes making friends. Then they remain his friends for good no matter what. Which is kinda cute.